Indiegogo Campaign + Edge Developer Samples


#46

I know but this doesn’t change the fact that normal ‘special’ cables aren’t enough for Profile 5. Those 100W capable cables are even more expensive.

And in the meantime I took one of the many 12V PSUs with the usual 5.5/2.1mm barrel plug that are lying here around anyway and do testing with RK3399 and fast NVMe storage :slight_smile:


#47

@Gouwa can you please comment on this? What does this mean when it’s about to connect the Edge with a low-spec USB-C charger only capable of 5V? Will stuff like this happen again:


#48

As Tigger replied, the Edge compliant full USB PD features and the voltage can go up to 20V, and we just config the handshake voltage as 12V (Rockchip recommed for RK3399), surely, the devlopers can set to 20V if they want.

Have to note that, many USB-C PSU with 20V output can also suppor the 5V/9V/12V/15V outputs, so the 12V hanshake voltage will works for all USB-C PSU

Of course, to let the USB-C PSU to output voltage higher then 5V, should use USB-C cable with CC PINs, and good quality to carry higer Ampere current.

As I known, there don’t have 100W USB-C PSU available in the market at the moment, actually, even Macbook Pro just use a 61W PSU, and 30W for 12 inch Macbook :wink:

A 12V PSU with 5.5/2.1mm works for Khadas Captain.


#49

I think a 18W PSU will work, sure thing is that an expensive 100W PSU can also work out :blush:


#50

Well, the one I use is 87W rated. And with a normal USB-C cable charging my MacBook Pro takes a lot longer.

Anyway: your recommendation of 18W is not sufficient for people connecting USB peripherals. So I would better adjust this now since you’ll have a lot of forum users later complaining about instabilities/crashes (it’s easy to test and the tests have already been made)

In a few years this will have changed (when there’s more than one USB-C compliant charger capable of at least Profile 3 lying around in every household). But today USB-C will just add another ‘nice’ problem source for devices that do not need to be charged but are required to run from a probably limited current provided by inferior USB-C gear as it’s common today.

Funnily symptoms will look like software issues (‘I recently installed $something and now my board crashes’) so have fun with the additional support efforts :slight_smile:


#51

Well, my question was what will happen if users buy an Edge and connect it to their USB-C charger only capable of 5V (USB-C chargers not implementing USB PD are a thing, it’s allowed to have chargers only providing 1.5A or 3A at 5V). What will this average user experience then? The Edge not starting?

I already asked this but to no avail: will you provide an inexpensive and dumb 12V/3A PSU with USB-C cable (not that I would recommend such a thing since it’s violating USB specs and can be used to fry all normal USB-C devices around).

For anyone eagerly wayiting to power his Edge with a fully compliant USB-C charger: take some time to read through the caveats first: https://www.makeuseof.com/tag/best-usb-c-chargers-whats-safe-whats-dangerous/ :rofl:


#52

See my last link. Recommended USB-C chargers that do not set your equipment on fire start at $35.

You will probably simply avoid USB-C at all then and use a 12V PSU with barrel plug instead. At least now that no costs are disclosed. I wonder whether Captain + Edge Max will remain below the 100 bucks barrier…


#53

The problem with going for the barrel plug is that it won’t fit in a standalone Edge.


#54

Sure. So time to do the research to get the least expensive USB-C charger (+35 bucks? 40?) and an appropriate cable able to signal negotiation of more than 5V. See @Gouwa’s comment there too: https://www.cnx-software.com/2018/09/09/khadas-rk3399-rk3399pro-boards-projector-development-kit-ar-kit/#comment-556040

Given that no prices are disclosed yet and I don’t believe Edge and Edge-V will cost just 10-20 bucks to compensate for the huge amount of costs for all the needed accessories (PSU, power cable, heatsink and fan) I’m out already anyway :slight_smile:

Just got notice that two more RK3399 thingies are on its way from China: NanoPi M4 (using USB-C but able to be combined with an el cheapo dumb 4A charger – we’ll see how well this works) and Rock960 EE (Ficus). Not sure how powering works there since ‘96Boards Enterprise Edition’ powering specs are quite confusing.


#55

It’s not about thermal pads. It is not about the efficiency of passive cooling and passive options to provide full equipment operation throughout the range prescribed in the surrounding temeprature (conditions). By the way, your tests have confirmed this clearly. Even small forced increase in air supply, dramatically reduces the overall temperature by 30-35 degrees. And this despite the comfortable conditions of the test. The lack of reaction (changes) in temperature by changing the position of the Board (set the Board vertically) also showed that indicating the radiator is clearly not intended for use in passive cooling systems. Its design is not designed for use in passive systems. This means that we used a part with a price of 10 , and the result was obtained as from the price of 2 (the figures are conditional and show inflated costs, with a minimum result). Its working area is only on the common surface of the radiator and the inner surface is not working. About the noise from the fan, using the correct equipment there is not any noise.


#56

So what?! Did you ever looked into the datasheets of the stuff you’re dealing with? This is a SoC not an animal or a human being. This thing is fine being operated at +80°C. There’s no need to have a chip running at the temperature level of your skin.

All I want is maximum performance at reasonable consumption figures, no noise and no moving parts and all at a competitive price. So no fan whatsoever especially not with a design that’s made to be inefficient and is overly expensive at the same time. And I honestly don’t care if the SoC is dead after 10 years instead of 100 since already in 5 years any SoC we use today is not in use any more anyway since obsolete (the ARM world moves too fast).

It seems all it’s here about is stuff that looks nice and pleases enthousiasts (people who love fans, fancy looking enclosures, leds blinking and such stuff). Not my area of interest…


#57

It was about the efficiency of two different cooling systems (passive and active) for the entire declared range of operating conditions of the equipment. For your specific operating conditions (and load used), perhaps the simplest passive system is sufficient. Only you have forgotten that the equipment under discussion will be used not only in such comfortable conditions as yours, but will also work in much more severe conditions (in the case and / or with high ambient temperature, etc.). Accordingly, the manufacturer (Khadas) take care not to repeat the previous mistakes and (I hope) strive to develop all the necessary components in advance. Which will ensure guaranteed operation of the equipment in all modes. For those who will use the equipment in light conditions, the first element of the cooling system - a passive radiator-may be enough. For those who will make the most of the equipment-need a second element, a ventilator (with automatic temperature control).

p.s.
Don’t twist the facts. The difference of 30 degrees I showed you as an indicator of low efficiency of the passive system and high susceptibility to instability at work. Try to place your equipment in real operating conditions, such as in a car (or ATM or other real working device) and at 40-50 degrees of ambient air. And load the system with real work, so that all components (CPU, intensive exchange over the network and with media, etc.) would work. Then evaluate the efficiency of the cooling system.


#58

Why should I even try to do this? If I would do ATMs or car entertainment systems I would look for stuff that is available in industrial temperature range (Edge is? – happy to learn that)

I know the maximum load my RK3399 devices get (yeah, including heavy networking stuff which does not increase temperatures BTW) and I want to operate them at reasonable costs, without moving parts and noise and with no wasted energy.

All I would get with Edge or Edge-V is an insufficient heatsink for my use case (since constructed to be only efficient when used with mounted fan) relying on a method of insufficient heat transfer from SoC to heatsink (thermal pad) so this use case simply won’t work with Edge or Edge-V or I would need to spend at least 20 bucks on something I don’t want or start to mill my own heatsink which I also do not want.

TL;DR: No appropriate passive cooling option provided for Edge/Edge-V which is not a problem since I probably can’t afford operating Edge/Edge-V anyway (at least I don’t want to spend 40 bucks just on a PSU per board). But fortunately this really is no problem at all.


#59

Do you already have an idea about the target price?


#60

I don’t really understand the point of releasing more and more boards, if you can’t even support 2 boards, if you look at the software support, i do believe that Khadas has one of the worst supports.

Even on this forum, if you need an answer, you have to wait for few days, and that is not something that we expect.

I believe that most of people that use sbc’s, buy them because of low power consumption, if i need 100w, it’s better to search for an x86 machine, it is plug and play, you don’t need to worry about os and driver support.

A lot of stuff was promised when Vim1 was released, and you failed to deliver, we can thank to other companies and people who have contributed for free for all the things achieved for S905/X soc’s.

I don’t believe Khadas edge will have competitive price, even if the price was correct, you’ll need to invest a lot of money for accessories.


#61

@balbes150 @chewitt @narmstrong congratulations! Do PM us your shipping address and telephone number!

x3 Edge v12 samples are awaiting packaging, and shipping! :slight_smile:


#62

What is the “worst” software ?
Give examples of the" best " software.

This is good advice for fools who want to be under the total control of a bunch of jerks.


#63

When you see other companies, like Odroid, i won’t mention Raspberry and other boards, when you post a question, you get the answer very soon, and here you’re happy if you even get an answer.

I started a topic few times, hoping the question get answered, hoping that someone will checkout possible bug in Android, nothing was solved, i still sometimes have force closes of system ui and some apps in android.

100W power consumption is something mostly not needed for sbc, of course there are some extreme examples, but i do believe they are really rare, if i needed this i would buy something that’s plug and play, and that is x86, especially because i believe the price will be high, just as x86 mini pc’s are.

There are many rk3399 boards that came out in the last few months, and i do believe the cheapest has the chance to survive.


#64

Most of the boards were updated to Ubuntu bionic, of course Vim isn’t one of them, they release updates 2-3 times a year, and if you look at Odroid C2, most of the video related stuff now works, and Khadas hasn’t yet tried to make it possible.

I know they are a small team, but that is the reason why you don’t release something you can’t cope with.

Many things were promised at the start, and now almost 2 years after Vim came out, we are at the beginning.

And everything achieved in that period, we can thank to you @balbes150, company that is involved in mainlining Amlogic kernel and few other people that are doing this for free, like you do.

You even made possible to use hw accelerated Kodi 17, they used your work and created emmc installable image, if it weren’t for you, we would never have something like this on Vim.

I know it’s not an easy task, better term is impossible, it’s Amlogic/Arm keeping their property closed source, almost every Arm computer suffers from the same diseases, i understand all of that, there aren’t many of them that run everything out of the box(if any), but you can’t promise something you can’t achieve.

They lied to us at the beginning, they advertised it as 4k Linux board, can’t remember all the lies i’ve read at the beginning.


#65

No one will (be able to) tell you : IndieGoGo Guess the Price of Edge Basic and Edge Max